EoC Discussion: DG Edition

[Traaavis]

Use this thread to post observations you have about how the EoC and how it impacts dungeoneering. Hopefully we can collaborate enough information/speculation to get a preliminary idea for how to attack the combat aspect of "new" dungeoneering.

For now, go with what we know; don't talk about additional binds until it's officially being implemented. Changes in traditional binds is acceptable, but we don't know how long it will take for Jagex to release additional binds (although there was a livestream today that I didn't watch -- let me know if they are adding binds on release).

If you want to post a general observation, that's great, but try to back it up with some specifics. For example, list ability names and combos that you find to be effective against different enemies/bosses/situations. Post action bar setups and tips for adrenaline usage, etc.

Hopefully we can compile everyone's suggestions, opinions, observations, and more into a comprehensive Intro to EoC DG guide, which can be further edited upon release and more testing.

EDIT: Black Magic says the following:

"I'm going to be posting things to know about EoC dg on this thread to prepare for the big update November 20th. I've been playing around with it lately and get the general idea. First I wanted to ask you guys what it is you wanted to know or are wondering about. I'll post some general things on here and look into whatever is asked. And if you know some tricks or tips, please share them here."

Ask questions if you're unsure of where to begin, or just post stuff for other people to check out to possibly spark some interest in the topic. Black Magic is more familiar with the EoC than I am, so direct questions primarily to him for now, and we can investigate as a clan. If you have experience in the EoC beta, please post what you know here.

Thanks everyone, happy dging!

Spreadsheet with my personal opinions contains:
- Action Bar Setups with Justification and Images
- Ability Analysis with Practical Application
- Catalog of Monster Weaknesses (work in progress)
- Boss tactics (work in progress)
- Loadouts (possible work in progress)

docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkL9M4qyZxFUdEYwb25CMDlZUVJVRktXZVBNLXNFMnc&output=html

[blackmagic]

IDEAL ABILITY BARS


MELEE ABILITY BAR:

Slice, Backhand, Sever, Smash, Cleave, Hurricane, Quake, Overpower

RANGE ABILITY BAR:

Piercing Shot, Binding Shot, Ricochet, Snipe, Fragmentation Shot, Snap Shot, Bombardment, Deadshot

Ability #1-5 :
These are your basic abilities, mostly used in GDs and to build up adrenaline on bosses.

Ability #6-7 :
Threshold Abilities (Quake + Hurricane for melee, Bombardment + Snap Shot for Range)
These will be used in big gds, merc, ramo, ghosts and boss. Most hit multiple targets and do a significant amount of damage.

Ability #8 :
Ultimate ability (Overpower for melee, Deadshot for Range)
This ability will also be used in merc, ramo and boss. Does a huge amount of damage and is highly reccomended for bosses.

Ability #9 :
Freedom
This ability will be used for whenever you get sniped thru prayer and bound by pesky mages.

Abilities 0, -, and = :
These will be to create your PGT, tele to your PGT and tele to the GGS, respectively. If you hit the ability to Create a PGT, regardless of if you have one down, it will act as the "quick-cast" option and make a new one... be careful with that.


BINDING ABILITIES ARE ON YOUR ABILITY BAR BECAUSE WHEN USED ON A TARGET THAT CANNOT BE STUNNED, THEY HIT RIDICULOUSLY HIGH.

Suggestions will be considered, this isn't near perfect. Just a start.

*Once the update is implemented, binds will change the ability bar a little*

[blackmagic]

Everyone do the quest to get 225 ammo. You'll need it.

[Snipercover]

Awesome guide, thanks!

[blackmagic]

As soon as the 10 binds come out, it'll be a lot easier to gather information and have it be more accurate.

[worldgorger]

fairly certain the stream said theyre releasing the increased binds with the smaller teams xp improvement update this week, not entirely sure though will check up on it

[blackmagic]

New info: Up to 10 binds, of which 5 can be used at a time in-dungeon. An interface at the smuggler will be used to choose your in-dungeon binds.

Potential pool of items to choose 10 binds from:

Hex, Blood Necklace, Shadow Silk Hood, Primal Kite, Golden Precision Bracelet, P2h, Primal Long, Primal Battleaxe, Primal Rapier, Celestial Catalytic Staff/EFS, Primal Plate, Saggi Body, Celestial Robe Top, Primal Legs, Saggi chaps, Celestial skirt.

So for a week or two, the best binds will include some of the following:
Saggi top
Primal Maul
Celestial surgebox
Primal Gaunts
Empowered fire staff

In addition to the current best binds of
Primal 2h
Hexhunter bow
Primal plate
Blood Necklace/ Shadow Silk Hood (used properly)
Sagg Arrows ++
Berserker & Desperado rings

Note: The only difference between Primal Maul and Primal 2h will be Slash and Crush attacks since you can't switch anymore. It may be beneficial for some people to have a primal maul for skeletons.

(Thanks for the help with this Maria)

[Alan]

I think rapier is well worth binding before eoc with the number of bosses weak to it

[Traaavis]

I thought there weren't going to be offhand weapons in DG? Unless they're going to fix that, you can cross off dual weapons of any sort.

[S0LD]

I've only played EoC around the time of release so I acknowledge it has changed since then, although as well as the melee and range ability bar setup, i used a 3rd bar for running. Equipping hex while running counted as a shield, so you had access to defensive and hp boosting abilities to help survive a path AND maintain a high ability bar so your threshold and even ultimate abilities will always be ready when you hit a gd/boss.

Here is a vid of these bar setups and me using them briefly (although this was shortly after the release).

[Traaavis]

In regards to monster weakness and 5th binds:

There are two tiers to monster weaknesses. The general weakness is either Melee, Range, or Magic. Then the specific weakness is what's listed in-game when examining a monster (elemental spells, different types of ammo, different melee attack styles). When using the specific weakness, you have an accuracy rating of 90%, which is ridiculously high. HOWEVER, using the general weakness is STILL VERY EFFECTIVE. This leads me to believe binding another melee weapon for Crush/Stab won't be a useful 5th bind. There aren't any monsters that are weak to Crush/Stab that are resistant to Salsh, and switching weapons incurs a 1 second additional cooldown for any abilities. I think a body bind to increase your offensive capability is more effective. It's late and I'm tired though, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, bosses don't have weaknesses anymore. It appears that they're equally resistant/weak to all attack styles, meaning the gear you are wearing is more important in regards to what attack style you should use. If you have a primal platebody, use melee + berserker ring. If you have a sag body, use range + desperado ring. If you have a celestial top, use magic. For bosses like necro who won't let you melee, a second body option seems to be the best way to increase damage output (sag if you have hex, celestial if you don't). For bosses like runebound who require two styles, it won't be as necessary for a range+melee combo, but Melee+Magic (for non hex users) will suffer since the platebody will drastically reduce your magic attack/accuracy (not sure the specifics). Removing the platebody lowers your HP by too much, which is why I suggest having another body bind. Necro was actually incredibly slow while wearing a platebody. I don't know for sure if wearing a sag body would help, but I don't see how it would hurt.

In my opinion, two combat styles is enough per player. Magic seems to be the least effective combat style still, especially now that gear matters a lot more than before. Monsters weak to magic attacks will inherently be resistant to range, but LESS resistant to melee, so they can still easily be dropped (and range sometimes seems to be fast enough, depending on level). Magic would be more effective, but casting magic with a primal platebody suffers a lot. It would almost be essential to bind a Celestial top for a Melee/Magic combo style, though as explained below, it's not worth it.

[Traaavis]

Here's a work-in-progress spreadsheet with my observations and opinions on the different abilities. It'll be updated as I fix specifics or get input from other people.

docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkL9M4qyZxFUdEYwb25CMDlZUVJVRktXZVBNLXNFMnc&output=html

[Traaavis]

I finished updating the Ranged portion. I will look into Magic later.

Personally I think setting keybinds properly will help you mentally separate abilities, and access them easier.

If you follow my Action Bar sequence, set the first five abilities as 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 keys. These are all Basic Abilities, and can be carelessly spammed if you don't want to plan attacks.

Set the next four slots as Q, W, E, and R keys. With the exception of Freedom, these are all Threshold abilities, so keeping them on a separate row may help in remembering the difference. It's also easy to keep your left hand in one location, ready to spam attacks or type as needed.

[Traaavis]

Assuming the info from RSWiki is correct, GPB is still a pretty bad bind choice. The +20 means it adds 20 to your damage stat, which is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Gauntlets are worse than a Hood since there are no more offensive stats and the Hood will still protect you from humanoid enemies.

Blood Necklace and Hood remain up for discussion. The hood gives you a life point and armor boost, plus concealment with no negatives other than being a magic class bind (won't affect magic/range dps too much, but it will lower it slightly). The BN is the only DG item to give an offensive boost, +5% crit to all attack styles, plus it damages/heals 300 damage every 10 seconds.

That being said, I'd go with the Blood Neck. Make a second loadout with a Hood if you want to increase survival chances, though staying alive is pretty simple already.

EDIT: I've been thinking it over. It may be more beneficial to bind a Celestial robeskirt instead of a Hood if your goal is exaggerated survival. Combined with two body binds, at any given time you're protected from 2 combat styles without hurting your DPS too drastically, and the LP/Armor boost is more significant.


Note: Platelegs, Chaps, and Robe Bottoms share the same stats of the equivalent tier.

[Traaavis]

Tonight I did A LOT of testing with enemy weaknesses, Magic, and Ranging with Shortbows. The results were pretty surprising.


MAGIC
--------

Bottom Line: Magic is 90% useless in DG.
Explanation: I did the following tests: magic abilities while wearing a plate, magic spells with a empowered catalytic staff with and without a plate, magic spells with enough magic gear to be greater than a celestial robetop bind, and magic spells+abilities with that same magic gear. Surprisingly, there are a lot of monsters in DG that are weak to magic. Normally this means magic would be the best way to take them down, but with all the trials I did, melee and ranged are far more effective...but it was weird. I crit a 250 while casting water surge on a monster weak to water spells, but then I crit a 1500 against a monster weak to slash with the same spell. The biggest reason for ditching magic is the fact that Primal Warriors are easier to kill with melee than magic. Not even kidding. It's pretty sad.

The 10% usefulness is on a boss. Because bosses don't have weaknesses, all 3 combat styles are equally effective, unless the boss uses a protection prayer (as of now this is what I've interpreted; if weaknesses are found later, this will change). This means that magic abilities and ultimates are still good choices to take down a boss, but because overall magic is bad, it's not worth it. The only boss I can think of that would benefit from having magic is Gorger to knock down the mage eye quicker. I haven't been able to get a Gorger spawn yet, so I'm not sure how the boss works.

Ranged
---------

Bottom Line: Sagittarian Shortbows are phenomenal.
Explanation: After realizing that magic is pretty much ineffective, I wanted to see if normal ranged weapons (i.e. not a Hex) were just as terrible, or if they'd be better replacements for current magic users. Hexes in the EoC are "Fastest" speed, meaning they hit every 2.4 seconds (4 ticks). Shortbows are every 3.0 seconds (5 ticks), and Longbows/2h are 3.6 seconds (6 ticks). In terms of raw DPS, Sagi Shortbows actually have a slightly higher value than Hexes (688 vs. 628), but this doesn't take into account the Hex's boost against magic enemies, nor does it account for the Life Point and Armor boosts the Hex provides (because it's a Shieldbow). The Sagi Longbow gives greater LP/Armor boosts, but the DPS is too low for it to be viable.

I don't know how to factor in the Hex's boost into its DPS score, but I've come to this conclusion: as long as the Hex bonus still works on Magic-using bosses, Hex is still the best ranged weapon to have. However, against bosses that you normally wouldn't range (i.e. Hope, Dread, Rammer, etc.), the Sagi Shortbow will actually be better, provided you don't die more often from the lower LP/armor. During the normal floor, Hex is much better for survival.

Because of this I propose the two following Loadouts for EoC DG:
1. Primal 2h, Hex, Primal Plate, Sagittarian Body, Blood Necklace
2. Primal 2h, Sagi Shortbow, Primal Plate, Sagi Body, Blood Necklace
(This is assuming you can stay alive and the Sagi bow is in fact more powerful against formerly non-Hexable bosses).

You would only switch to the second loadout if you die while the boss is over 1/2 HP, or if you are solo/duoing the boss and die. It's not worth the time to HT and switch loadouts. Think of it like you would treat the following scenario now: boss is found without ragers made, but you have materials. Is the whole team at boss? Is the floor almost finished? Are you almost dead? Is the boss even worth ragering? Lots of factors to take into account, so the switch to the alternate bow is highly situational, if not completely unnecessary.

I kind of rambled a bit in this post, but what I'm getting at is IF YOU CURRENTLY USE MAGIC AND ARE WAITING FOR A HEX DROP, GET A SAGITTARRIAN SHORTBOW + ARROWS FOR EoC. You will do far more damage this way. In case I'm wrong, I've been told the Celestial Catalytic Staff and Doomcore Staff both provide unlimited Catalytic and Elemental runes -- it's worth binding CCS with 99 magic and Doomcore otherwise, plus a Celestial Robetop, as a backup plan.